Max, that was fabulous. It's difficult for me to make a lucid comment, when you are operating on such a high literary plane. While I had the benefit of liberal exposure to Shakespeare at Brophy, and ASU, none of the instructors were your intellectual equal or had your talent for communication.
It certainly was a bold choice to use Shakespeare's works and philosophy as a way to resolve the issues you saw in the reader reactions to Joseph Heller's novel. IMHO, you nailed it.
I especially enjoyed your use of the video, highlighting the instructions to the actors from Hamlet. It was very effective.
I saw Hamlet at Grady Gammage Auditorium back in the mid 60s. I've never seen King Lear. I'm far more familiar with Merchant of Venice, Romeo and Juliet, Henry V, and Midsummer's Night Dream.
At no time, during my life would I have seen the connection to the biblical reference of Abraham's interaction with God, regarding Sodom. Of course, your inspired explanation of King Lear, and your unique knowledge of the Bard, makes the connection seem almost obvious.
I wonder, Max, if Abraham were alive today, and God was contemplating the members of the democrat caucus in Congress, how the negotiation would transpire. I have no doubt that the dems might suffer the same fate as Sodom and Gamorrah.
Fetterman, and that's about it. No, he doesn't support the whole MAGA agenda, but he knows which side is right in Israel and that's good enough for me. He has stood fast despite all manner of attacks; so I'm sure the Democrats will decide he has to go...
Tony, you may have crossed the line, more specifically the line in the Lord's Prayer that reads "Lead us not into temptation..."
How can God leads us into temptation, you may or may not ask?
Well, one of the easiest ways to be led into temptation by God is to suggest that God is political based on our understanding of politics. Our politics is good while the other's politics is bad. This is not to defend the bad we see and perceive in another's politics; it is to say that God's choices are not our choices. God would never destroy us, because clearly we are good, but those other guys! Well they're a different story.
We are charged by God to defend the good as we see it. We are not charged to condemn anyone. That's God's domain, as in "vengeance is mine."
Do I think that WOKE politics is damnable and bad? Yes. And as such I must work and speak against those politics. Do I condemn those that practice thes politics? No. That's, as they say, "above my pay grade."
Cas, that's certainly an interesting take on my comment. I respectfully disagree with your analysis and conclusion.
Personally, I have prayed for political results all of my life. I understand your point about praying for the condemnation of the individual politician. Never have done that.
And, I did not do that in this case, either. The biblical reference is a conversation between God and Abraham regarding God's decision to punish Sodom. Abraham is negotiating for residents. God, knowing all things, but gives Abraham a break on the total number of honest, decent, people in an awful place. God knows that Abraham can't find even a smaller number of honest, God-fearing folks in the whole population.
So, perhaps, you over reacted, and misinterpreted my comment, which was essentially tongue-in-cheek sarcasm, based on the reality (IMHO) that among all the elected dem officials in Congress, Abraham could not find ANY honest, God-fearing folks.
By making reference to Abraham’s reaction to God’s plan, you fix on the most salient feature, or more specifically, the main reason for why our relationship with God faulters: Why is God’s plan different from my plan? We see the evil and cannot conquer it? Why? Why are we so weak?
The short answer is that we cannot do it alone. God’s plan has us as the junior partners in His creation. And as junior partners often do, we err. Our errors, in order to be truly instructive, must always lead back to God, for it is in such a return that we realize the we cannot do it alone. It is in this return that we find our redemption and salvation.
Joke or no, I wrote in the hope that redemption and salvation are truly bipartisan.
"Social Justice" is an oxymoron that incites the howling mob, like in today's South Africa and Minneapolis, or Revolutionary France and Bolshevik Russia.
Look around you. Anything you can find that has the word “social” in front of it, might as well have “phony”. Social Democrats, social science, social worker….
Max, I love Shakespeare’s writings, but never enjoyed King Lear, as it seemed so very hopeless to me. Your explanations have caused me to rethink. Thank you.
Another outstanding essay by Mr. Voss. However I object to the use of the silly terms "BCE and CE". The only "common" era is that of the calendar based on the birth of Christ, which is why the world calls this year the year 2025 (although the actual assigning of Christ's birth based on the Roman calendaring of His time of birth is a bit off). Chinese, Japanese, Hindus, various Western Hemisphere Indian tribes, Muslims and Jews all use their own calendars for their own religious/ ethnic calendaring but all use of the AD/BC system which gives us this year as 2025 A.D. (year of our Lord) and its antecedent years as B.C. years (before Christ). In fact, many people around the Earth have no calendaring system except the Christian-based one.
I'm in The 9th grade, in English Class we had to read Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. And Like all good 14 year old males Grumble, Grumble, Grumble! I'm about 4-5 pages in and something Amazing happened. I discovered (much to my Shock) I was a Pretty Good Story!
Point being there's a Very Good Why 500 years after he wrote, we Still Read/Watch Plays, Movies he wrote.
I recall reading there are Colleges you can get a degree in English Lit, and NOT read/study a word he wrote. This says a great deal about The Academy today...and none of it good.
I would bet it's the MAJORITY of English Lit degree programs that don't teach Shakespeare. Our son majored in English Lit at Oberlin College (yeah, I know... I know...) more than a quarter century ago, and it was all feminist poetry and other crap already. Nary a word of Shakespeare.
My first two years of college were at a “junior college”, for which I paid no tuition. Of all my classes, I loved—truly loved—English literature. I had an excellent teacher. In the summer session I did an independent study reading two other Shakespeare plays. To this day I believe I missed nothing other than “reputation” by going to a community college and state college for my undergraduate degree. That in California, in the ‘60’s, when California was the best place on earth to be. That ended not long after.
Well EVERYONE KNOWS the (Vital) importance of 16th century Lesbian French Poetry! How is it possible to be considered educated without a Deep knowledge of that?
Indeed. You make an excellent point here, Steve! Although I wouldn't just pick on the Lesbian poets...I am willing to bet that MOST 16th century poetry would not come close to the value of Shakespeare no matter what the sexual preference of the poet! Susan
I was a callow 17 years old when introduced to Shakespeare during an eleventh grade (1972-1973) English class. We read Romeo and Juliet and The Taming of the Shrew. It was such a revelatory experience to read the many 300 year old phrases which were, and are, current in our daily speech. ‘“A rose by any other name”, and so on. I was so fascinated by these common sayings that I purchased two paperback books: four tragedies, and four comedies each. Hamlet was accessible, as was Macbeth. Julius Caesar not so much. I don’t recall the four comedies. I eventually read most of the eight plays. Many don’t know this but just like the King James Bible, Shakespeare’s plays are meant to be read aloud. The rhythm of the language settles in and makes the words more clearly understood. I discovered this during a college level “Scenes from Plays” acting class where I performed several soliloquies. “Is this a dagger I see before me, the handle t’ward my hand? Come, let me clutch thee!” I learned the word let means hinder—not allow or permit. My faith’s official English language bible is the KJV. My study of the Bible and Shakespeare continues to profoundly affect both my writing and my speaking.
As usual interesting and thought provoking. There is an interesting essay by George Orwell on King Lear and Tolstoys very strange take on the play. I find it impressive and worth a second read as to how you can see the shift let us say from paganism to a G-d based system. Parenthically it fits great cant spell perfect with the Jewish calendar it being Shavous. The beginning of all the laws, and just how to behave. Horribly expressed. Difference in someone who is a writer and can express his thoughts like you, and someone like me who cant.
Ah, Max. Yes, I had to take issue with you about Heller, but about Shakespeare we are of one mind. I can only echo my friend TonyP173’s praise.
I fell in love with Lear in “junior college” (see my reply to Susan below). Our daughter’s middle name is Cordelia—over my wife’s objections, because she faulted Cordelia for her silence. Why? I think because thats’ the way she would have responded, and she knew it to be self-destructive.
Lately Lear has once again come to life for me. My brother has three daughters and for some years was traveling from one to the other—in England, California, and Washington State. Fortunately for us, at 92 he is not raging against the storm or his fate.
Then again, our family situation not infrequently brings to memory “How sharper than a serpent’s tooth it is to have a thankless child”. That’s Act I, Scene IV, as the highly educated (German) microbiology professor I was portraying in our second-year med school skit lectured.
A final thought: in Shakespeare’s day we know, as viewers of The Upstart Crow know, that women were not allowed on the stage. Yet Shakespeare’s women are, in my opinion, the strongest, most memorable, most vivid female characters in all of literature. “What is Hecuba to him, or he to Hecuba, that he should weep for her?”
AND William was clearly clairvoyant. Whom could he have had in mind but Hillary Clinton when he wrote MacBeth? (A friend of ours in San Diego had a little independent bookshop she called The Upstart Crow.)
Ammogrrl hanging out with her husband. Good on you! I comment on Powerline as lstokes. Pnman55= Peripheral Neuropathy Man, 55 for my birth year.I’me approaching Geezehood—if I can figure out at what age it starts. I followed Steve Hayward over here and found a Cossack. Kamilkazi on Substack has some very interesting posts. I first found him on X at the beginning of the latest invasion of Ukraine. His take on Russian failures and attitudes have pretty much been spot-on. He’s from a non-Russian ethnic group in the Federation, speaks multiple languages. He has several degrees, one from Russia, one from China, and a doctorate in economics(?) from a Scottish institution which name I forget (St. Andrew’s?) He explains very well how the Bolsheviks took over the Russian Empire and why the regime was doomed to fail, and why things inexplicable to Westerners continue occurring in Russia. He dislikes authoritarian regimes, favors a market economy.
Ok. I never got into Shakespeare but in college, freshman year, with a TA at the helm we had to read King Lear and then do a paper on it.
Well. I got a C. Incensed, I went to the TA to ask why. She said my conclusion, which I believe I said at the end Lear regained his sanity, was totally wrong. She had lectured the opposite. So I told her, you just wanted us to repeat what you said, you really didn’t want us to draw our own conclusions. And she started crying. And that’s when I decided to never take any more English classes beyond what was required.
I did however in HS have to memorize Portia’s speech in the merchant of Venice. “The quality of mercy is not strained blah blah blah. And I do so like his first thing we do is kill all the lawyers.
I don't like Merchant at all. Around the year 1600, bear-baiting was a popular street amusement in London. Shakespeare probably had a run-in with a Jewish money-lender and decided to get his revenge with some cheap laughs.
In my not at all humble opinion, Love's Labour's Lost was originally performed as a musical. Unfortunately only the libretto survives. Spoken not sung, the play has little sparkle.
I'm not mad about any of the Histories. Othello is my favorite with Midsummer and Hamlet tying for second.
Abraham bargained G-d down to 10 righteous men. I have often wondered if he stopped bargaining too soon, what about just one righteous man? Of course, that is the Christian view, that one righteous man was finally found . . . and killed for it, down on Highway 61.
God said to Abraham, kill me a son...Abe said, "Man, you must be puttin' me on..."
One of my very favorite Dylan offerings, especially fond of the line "You can do what you want Abe, but, the next time you see me comin', you better run..."
I have always hated the Abraham and Isaac story no matter how many times our Sages and Rabbis explain its yuge significance to me. I have one child, a son. Had God asked me to kill him, I just straight-up would have failed that test...sorry...though I would have taken his place in a heartbeat.
Max, that was fabulous. It's difficult for me to make a lucid comment, when you are operating on such a high literary plane. While I had the benefit of liberal exposure to Shakespeare at Brophy, and ASU, none of the instructors were your intellectual equal or had your talent for communication.
It certainly was a bold choice to use Shakespeare's works and philosophy as a way to resolve the issues you saw in the reader reactions to Joseph Heller's novel. IMHO, you nailed it.
I especially enjoyed your use of the video, highlighting the instructions to the actors from Hamlet. It was very effective.
I saw Hamlet at Grady Gammage Auditorium back in the mid 60s. I've never seen King Lear. I'm far more familiar with Merchant of Venice, Romeo and Juliet, Henry V, and Midsummer's Night Dream.
At no time, during my life would I have seen the connection to the biblical reference of Abraham's interaction with God, regarding Sodom. Of course, your inspired explanation of King Lear, and your unique knowledge of the Bard, makes the connection seem almost obvious.
I wonder, Max, if Abraham were alive today, and God was contemplating the members of the democrat caucus in Congress, how the negotiation would transpire. I have no doubt that the dems might suffer the same fate as Sodom and Gamorrah.
Can we identify ten righteous Democrats in Congress?
Nope!
Fetterman, and that's about it. No, he doesn't support the whole MAGA agenda, but he knows which side is right in Israel and that's good enough for me. He has stood fast despite all manner of attacks; so I'm sure the Democrats will decide he has to go...
Susan
Who among the dem's camp followers would be candidates for the pillar of salt?
Tony, you may have crossed the line, more specifically the line in the Lord's Prayer that reads "Lead us not into temptation..."
How can God leads us into temptation, you may or may not ask?
Well, one of the easiest ways to be led into temptation by God is to suggest that God is political based on our understanding of politics. Our politics is good while the other's politics is bad. This is not to defend the bad we see and perceive in another's politics; it is to say that God's choices are not our choices. God would never destroy us, because clearly we are good, but those other guys! Well they're a different story.
We are charged by God to defend the good as we see it. We are not charged to condemn anyone. That's God's domain, as in "vengeance is mine."
Do I think that WOKE politics is damnable and bad? Yes. And as such I must work and speak against those politics. Do I condemn those that practice thes politics? No. That's, as they say, "above my pay grade."
Cas, that's certainly an interesting take on my comment. I respectfully disagree with your analysis and conclusion.
Personally, I have prayed for political results all of my life. I understand your point about praying for the condemnation of the individual politician. Never have done that.
And, I did not do that in this case, either. The biblical reference is a conversation between God and Abraham regarding God's decision to punish Sodom. Abraham is negotiating for residents. God, knowing all things, but gives Abraham a break on the total number of honest, decent, people in an awful place. God knows that Abraham can't find even a smaller number of honest, God-fearing folks in the whole population.
So, perhaps, you over reacted, and misinterpreted my comment, which was essentially tongue-in-cheek sarcasm, based on the reality (IMHO) that among all the elected dem officials in Congress, Abraham could not find ANY honest, God-fearing folks.
If I “overreacted” I sincerely apologize.
By making reference to Abraham’s reaction to God’s plan, you fix on the most salient feature, or more specifically, the main reason for why our relationship with God faulters: Why is God’s plan different from my plan? We see the evil and cannot conquer it? Why? Why are we so weak?
The short answer is that we cannot do it alone. God’s plan has us as the junior partners in His creation. And as junior partners often do, we err. Our errors, in order to be truly instructive, must always lead back to God, for it is in such a return that we realize the we cannot do it alone. It is in this return that we find our redemption and salvation.
Joke or no, I wrote in the hope that redemption and salvation are truly bipartisan.
"Social Justice" is an oxymoron that incites the howling mob, like in today's South Africa and Minneapolis, or Revolutionary France and Bolshevik Russia.
Look around you. Anything you can find that has the word “social” in front of it, might as well have “phony”. Social Democrats, social science, social worker….
Social disease.
Max, I love Shakespeare’s writings, but never enjoyed King Lear, as it seemed so very hopeless to me. Your explanations have caused me to rethink. Thank you.
Glad to be of service, Lucy!
Another outstanding essay by Mr. Voss. However I object to the use of the silly terms "BCE and CE". The only "common" era is that of the calendar based on the birth of Christ, which is why the world calls this year the year 2025 (although the actual assigning of Christ's birth based on the Roman calendaring of His time of birth is a bit off). Chinese, Japanese, Hindus, various Western Hemisphere Indian tribes, Muslims and Jews all use their own calendars for their own religious/ ethnic calendaring but all use of the AD/BC system which gives us this year as 2025 A.D. (year of our Lord) and its antecedent years as B.C. years (before Christ). In fact, many people around the Earth have no calendaring system except the Christian-based one.
I'm in The 9th grade, in English Class we had to read Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. And Like all good 14 year old males Grumble, Grumble, Grumble! I'm about 4-5 pages in and something Amazing happened. I discovered (much to my Shock) I was a Pretty Good Story!
Point being there's a Very Good Why 500 years after he wrote, we Still Read/Watch Plays, Movies he wrote.
I recall reading there are Colleges you can get a degree in English Lit, and NOT read/study a word he wrote. This says a great deal about The Academy today...and none of it good.
Hey Ho, Western Lit has got to go!
I would bet it's the MAJORITY of English Lit degree programs that don't teach Shakespeare. Our son majored in English Lit at Oberlin College (yeah, I know... I know...) more than a quarter century ago, and it was all feminist poetry and other crap already. Nary a word of Shakespeare.
My first two years of college were at a “junior college”, for which I paid no tuition. Of all my classes, I loved—truly loved—English literature. I had an excellent teacher. In the summer session I did an independent study reading two other Shakespeare plays. To this day I believe I missed nothing other than “reputation” by going to a community college and state college for my undergraduate degree. That in California, in the ‘60’s, when California was the best place on earth to be. That ended not long after.
Well EVERYONE KNOWS the (Vital) importance of 16th century Lesbian French Poetry! How is it possible to be considered educated without a Deep knowledge of that?
Indeed. You make an excellent point here, Steve! Although I wouldn't just pick on the Lesbian poets...I am willing to bet that MOST 16th century poetry would not come close to the value of Shakespeare no matter what the sexual preference of the poet! Susan
But more valuable than "Modern" Poetry. Your Maya Angelou, Sylvia everything suck Plath. And don't get me started on The Beats!
This is a point that I have made many times. Shakespeare was making a comment on pre-Christian life in Britain.
I was a callow 17 years old when introduced to Shakespeare during an eleventh grade (1972-1973) English class. We read Romeo and Juliet and The Taming of the Shrew. It was such a revelatory experience to read the many 300 year old phrases which were, and are, current in our daily speech. ‘“A rose by any other name”, and so on. I was so fascinated by these common sayings that I purchased two paperback books: four tragedies, and four comedies each. Hamlet was accessible, as was Macbeth. Julius Caesar not so much. I don’t recall the four comedies. I eventually read most of the eight plays. Many don’t know this but just like the King James Bible, Shakespeare’s plays are meant to be read aloud. The rhythm of the language settles in and makes the words more clearly understood. I discovered this during a college level “Scenes from Plays” acting class where I performed several soliloquies. “Is this a dagger I see before me, the handle t’ward my hand? Come, let me clutch thee!” I learned the word let means hinder—not allow or permit. My faith’s official English language bible is the KJV. My study of the Bible and Shakespeare continues to profoundly affect both my writing and my speaking.
As usual interesting and thought provoking. There is an interesting essay by George Orwell on King Lear and Tolstoys very strange take on the play. I find it impressive and worth a second read as to how you can see the shift let us say from paganism to a G-d based system. Parenthically it fits great cant spell perfect with the Jewish calendar it being Shavous. The beginning of all the laws, and just how to behave. Horribly expressed. Difference in someone who is a writer and can express his thoughts like you, and someone like me who cant.
Ah, Max. Yes, I had to take issue with you about Heller, but about Shakespeare we are of one mind. I can only echo my friend TonyP173’s praise.
I fell in love with Lear in “junior college” (see my reply to Susan below). Our daughter’s middle name is Cordelia—over my wife’s objections, because she faulted Cordelia for her silence. Why? I think because thats’ the way she would have responded, and she knew it to be self-destructive.
Lately Lear has once again come to life for me. My brother has three daughters and for some years was traveling from one to the other—in England, California, and Washington State. Fortunately for us, at 92 he is not raging against the storm or his fate.
Then again, our family situation not infrequently brings to memory “How sharper than a serpent’s tooth it is to have a thankless child”. That’s Act I, Scene IV, as the highly educated (German) microbiology professor I was portraying in our second-year med school skit lectured.
A final thought: in Shakespeare’s day we know, as viewers of The Upstart Crow know, that women were not allowed on the stage. Yet Shakespeare’s women are, in my opinion, the strongest, most memorable, most vivid female characters in all of literature. “What is Hecuba to him, or he to Hecuba, that he should weep for her?”
AND William was clearly clairvoyant. Whom could he have had in mind but Hillary Clinton when he wrote MacBeth? (A friend of ours in San Diego had a little independent bookshop she called The Upstart Crow.)
All the perfumes of Arabia will not sweeten this little hand.
Ammogrrl hanging out with her husband. Good on you! I comment on Powerline as lstokes. Pnman55= Peripheral Neuropathy Man, 55 for my birth year.I’me approaching Geezehood—if I can figure out at what age it starts. I followed Steve Hayward over here and found a Cossack. Kamilkazi on Substack has some very interesting posts. I first found him on X at the beginning of the latest invasion of Ukraine. His take on Russian failures and attitudes have pretty much been spot-on. He’s from a non-Russian ethnic group in the Federation, speaks multiple languages. He has several degrees, one from Russia, one from China, and a doctorate in economics(?) from a Scottish institution which name I forget (St. Andrew’s?) He explains very well how the Bolsheviks took over the Russian Empire and why the regime was doomed to fail, and why things inexplicable to Westerners continue occurring in Russia. He dislikes authoritarian regimes, favors a market economy.
Ok. I never got into Shakespeare but in college, freshman year, with a TA at the helm we had to read King Lear and then do a paper on it.
Well. I got a C. Incensed, I went to the TA to ask why. She said my conclusion, which I believe I said at the end Lear regained his sanity, was totally wrong. She had lectured the opposite. So I told her, you just wanted us to repeat what you said, you really didn’t want us to draw our own conclusions. And she started crying. And that’s when I decided to never take any more English classes beyond what was required.
I did however in HS have to memorize Portia’s speech in the merchant of Venice. “The quality of mercy is not strained blah blah blah. And I do so like his first thing we do is kill all the lawyers.
"And she started crying."
Someone had No Business Teaching!
They always outsource freshman core classes to TAs.
I don't like Merchant at all. Around the year 1600, bear-baiting was a popular street amusement in London. Shakespeare probably had a run-in with a Jewish money-lender and decided to get his revenge with some cheap laughs.
In my not at all humble opinion, Love's Labour's Lost was originally performed as a musical. Unfortunately only the libretto survives. Spoken not sung, the play has little sparkle.
I'm not mad about any of the Histories. Othello is my favorite with Midsummer and Hamlet tying for second.
No Jews were allowed in England at that time, with one possible exception, a doctor for the queen who was executed after being framed.
I plan to write about Merchant at some point.
Thanks for reminding me!
Abraham bargained G-d down to 10 righteous men. I have often wondered if he stopped bargaining too soon, what about just one righteous man? Of course, that is the Christian view, that one righteous man was finally found . . . and killed for it, down on Highway 61.
God said to Abraham, kill me a son...Abe said, "Man, you must be puttin' me on..."
One of my very favorite Dylan offerings, especially fond of the line "You can do what you want Abe, but, the next time you see me comin', you better run..."
I have always hated the Abraham and Isaac story no matter how many times our Sages and Rabbis explain its yuge significance to me. I have one child, a son. Had God asked me to kill him, I just straight-up would have failed that test...sorry...though I would have taken his place in a heartbeat.
Abraham believed the promise of God and reckoned He could raise the dead to life. Amazing story.
Struck me a little too much like total war–what about the children?